Canoe with a View : : Canadian Open Canoe forum

I went to my local pool with my Apache last night, as Southend Canoe Club use it and I wanted to see how friendly my canoe would be when tipped over.

Quite amusing taking my 15' canoe into a 25m pool with a couple of dozen of those teeny weeny little kayaks. I just moved very slowly into the middle of the pool and heeled her over until she started shipping water and capsized.

My usual kit load of a 50L dry bag stuffed with spare clothes, PFD's and then inflated and a 15L dry bag stuffed with whatever - both clipped onto the handles fore and aft and then strapped down with bungees is entirely useless. The smaller drybag actually filled up with water and the large one just burst out of the bungees and acted to hold the submereged canoe a few inches below the surface. Oh dear!

I used the painter to haul the boat to the edge of the pool and turned it upside down to facilitate removing it from the water. Then repeated the process using an empty 50L plastic barrel that Stu gave me when i bought the boat. This I lashed in with a ratchett strap. Same outcome, but now two floats.

One of the club members suggested I consolidate all the bouyancy in the centre of the boat and lashed it down good and proper. This helped and when i next capsized, the buoyancy stayed in the bottom of the hull where it would actually do some good. I was able to get underneath the inverted boat, and then flip it over to right it with only a small amount of water going with it (3-4").

I tried various methods of getting back in - swimming across the boat, using a stirrup from the otherside to stand on and eskimo rolling, but it appears that with my current level of bouyancy and skill getting in the boat with the gunwhales all above the water is not possible.

I note that Apaches have quite low sides - can any of you owners self rescue?

The point of the practise was to discover if I can protect my children in the event that THEY capsize the boat (3&5 yr old). I'm now confident that I can right the boat with minimal water and then shove them into it. I'm also confident that I can recover my boat - would I have been able to without the barrel? I doubt it! I would then still have to tow to land

I have learned that buoyancy counts for nought if it is floating above a submerged canoe - it must be well lashed. I'm planning on drilling some holes through the gunwhales for tying loops. I'm wary about drilling below the gunwhales as I don't want any leaky holes.

Thank goodness I did this.

Help!

Hi Petey

There is no problem drilling below the gunwales as when you lace the boat there is very little room for water to come in, plus the holes will be well above the water line. I would drill the boat about 1 1/2" below the gunwales if you have the standard wood ones fitted.

My advice would be to fit 32" airbags front and back then you will have a boat that will float at a reasonable level in the water, can easily be self rescued either by emptying the boat in the water by rocking it from side to side to swish the water out and finished off by bailing, an old plastic milk container with the bottom cut off works great.

As for getting back in the boat you do need it fairly empty first, then use one of the seats to haul yourself back in, this is easier than trying to use the yoke as you can reach right over to the far side of the boat as it is a narrower at the ends rather than the middle

Great that you can get the boat into the pool to practice

hi
i had similar problems with mine
i think the self rescue comes with practice,
ive yet to master it myself, i think i just need to practice enough till i get the hang of it..
i used tesco airbags in mine, once the canoe was the right way up again, it floated with the gunwales above the water line, so could be bailed... before it sat under the water...
with the larger airbags in, i could actually sit in the canoe with it swamped and it still floated...so i suppose in an emergency situation it could either be bailed, or paddled to the shore , then emptied...
also
regarding kids,
i took 3 out in my canoe, on a lake, and stayed close to the edge,
if we did capsize i would have just got the kids out to the side first, then i would have gone back for the boat,
dont know if it helps, but check these links out,

http://www.canoewithaview.co.uk/forum/sh...co+airbags

http://www.canoewithaview.co.uk/forum/sh...hp?tid=466

http://picasaweb.google.com/boiledbeef/H...0083114418

http://www.canoewithaview.co.uk/forum/sh...p?tid=1583

Lashing gear in is a good idea to stop it moving while the hull is upright. But once it's flipped, that very same lashed gear, makes for problematic re-entry. Try attaching gear via a 2.5-3' length of cord, (not elastic) and clipping this to the canoe. Then if you capsize, the gear can float free, while still being tethered. Get the hull flipped the right way up and then try getting back in. Once you're in, bale out and then haul the gear back aboard. I realise this won't be as easy in ww or a current/windy condition. But I'll assume you're going to practice first on calm flatwater. All the vids of people self-recueing, are done into empty hulls. And it will be easier to regain entry, if the centre section of the hull, is devoid of gear/obstructions.

As to the drybags openning; remember to turn the top band over at least four times, before clipping the buckle. If you can't make at least four folds, the bag if too full. You'll just have to devide the gear, into more bags or carry less gear.

As to floating bouyancy. You have already witnessed the power of water pressure. That's why a lengthways strap to a glued D-ring is often used in conjucntion with with lashing. To prevent the bags/blocks from popping out from underneath the lacing. If you use shock-cord for the lacing. Remember to pre-tension it, so there is very little, (read 'no') movement of the bouyancy when the hull is full of water. And rig a cage of lacing or fit a lengthways strap, to prevent that slipage.

TGB

Good advice

This is the easiest way

[evid]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hZd72ZCmjU[/evid]

And these are good for a laugh

[evid]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3zb9It7ECY[/evid]

[evid]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9n_CSZ13rA[/evid]

Always make sure you have emptied most of the water out of the boat before trying to get back in

Kim Bull a L5 coach is running a free Open Water Safety and Rescue Workshop on Sunday 15th November at Kielder Water in Northumberland full details HERE

Kim is a great guy and I am sure the workshop will be worthwhile.

Hi Pete

You have seen the bouyancy bags in my Apache, one of your photos below to remind you :-)

My Apache floats with the gunnels about three/four inches out of the water when capsized, or to use the proper terminology "when I fell out trying to get in!!!!"

That's a heap of great advice guys - thankyou!

I'm going to drill, D-Ring and Exercise Ball as advised above, then digest those videos and posts a few more times and then see if I can then do it!

Many thanks to all!

Hi folks,
Thanks, I enjoyed this topic and I don’t think the problems of capsizing can be illuminated too much.
I have to say I have not mastered the art of self recovery yet but I would like to add one or two points I discovered when I have tried it.
I have got an Ontario, but it is single seat and otherwise empty. When swamped, it floats just below the gunwales. With a little bit of pressure under the hull, it might be possible to bail from outside under some circumstances.
Having two people in the water, fit and adult enough is a different ballgame because the opposite side of the boat can be counterbalanced, whilst each climbs aboard. The bailing attempts shown above could have been a success because his gunwales were out of the water when he started, an obvious prerequisite. He needed to keep the boat steady for the first few bucketfuls.
There is all the difference in the world as to whether you can touch the bottom or not, even on tiptoe. If you can touch the bottom, the boat is more easily turned from underneath. In addition, it is far easier to re-embark by pushing off the bottom.
As soon as I moved my feet from under my body, they involuntarily floated to the surface. I was wearing wet boots, which contained air. I was advised later to swim at the boat kicking like crazy, with my feet behind. I have not had the opportunity to try this yet.
In the footsteps of BB, I’m off for my exercise balls as soon as possible. I’ll be practicing self recovery at the first opportunity again as well!

(31-10-09 06:10 PM)Graeme @ YC Wrote: [ -> ]This is the easiest way

[evid]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hZd72ZCmjU[/evid]

And these are good for a laugh

[evid]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3zb9It7ECY[/evid]

Half regret ever posting those.
We learnt a lot but now look like clueless pratts all over the web.

(14-02-10 08:44 PM)AHPP Wrote: [ -> ]Half regret ever posting those.
We learnt a lot but now look like clueless pratts all over the web.

I would certainly not regret posting these, as you said you learnt a lot and your experiences will help many more in the future to get it right as you did

Thank you for sharing your experience as shared experience aid the learning process.

(14-02-10 08:51 PM)Graeme @ YC Wrote: [ -> ]

(14-02-10 08:44 PM)AHPP Wrote: [ -> ]Half regret ever posting those.
We learnt a lot but now look like clueless pratts all over the web.

I would certainly not regret posting these, as you said you learnt a lot and your experiences will help many more in the future to get it right as you did

Thank you for sharing your experience as shared experience aid the learning process.

We "got it right" by standing on the bottom (still amazed nobody noticed) and cheating so everyone watching could finally f*** off home and we could get out! I'd been in my underpants in a grotty river for over an hour and had already worked out it's more realistic for one to support/brace and another to bail (with a bigger bailer) and that flipping was too hard in that situation to be anything more than a crowd pleaser.
I suppose we felt that we had to give the people what they wanted though.

On a video I saw a while back Kim Bull pulled off a nice move involving floating one end on a bag and flipping the other end to land the canoe empty. Very impressive and I'll be giving it a go sometime to see if it works for me. I've also got an idea for an alternative that avoids the ball-ache of swimming into an empty floating canoe without swamping it. This involves a gear bag/barrel on a leash to act as an outrigger and isn't as complicated as this sentence makes it sound.

All this stuff I need to try out, both for my own interest and satisfaction and so that I'm self reliant on open water solo.
Bugger doing it this time of year though (I don't yet own a drysuit).

Once I've got a few different systems wired I will report back with a more definitive how to and how not to.

For me self rescue may be an enjoyable skill to achieve whilst out with colleagues and friends or on the relevant course.

I can self-rescue or should I say I could self-rescue but like many things this takes practise and I don't practise anymore.
A learned colleague of mine from over the pond once gave me a useful piece of advice
Don't paddle on your own if 'off shore'
Therefore should you fall or be tipped get to shore, walk or swim and get out of those wet clothes and out of the wind
Wet Clothes are effected by the latent heat effect and act like a refrigerator.

Now I just make my way to shore on the only time I came out on a lake (Coniston) The canoe will make its own way ashore eventually!

(31-10-09 11:27 AM)Graeme @ YC Wrote: [ -> ]As for getting back in the boat you do need it fairly empty first, then use one of the seats to haul yourself back in, this is easier than trying to use the yoke as you can reach right over to the far side of the boat as it is a narrower at the ends rather than the middle

Great that you can get the boat into the pool to practice

I was taught to climb along the thwart kicking as per the front crawl.

Will try the seat way next time with my prospector, when we did the CST we had to jump out and climb back in a canoe unaided in deep water, I could do it in my old Explorer16 but in my P15 it keeps filling up with water.

But sayin all that Jammy has a point.

Cheers
Tim