Canoe with a View : : Canadian Open Canoe forum

Anyone have any knowledge regarding what a 5 Star leader (Canoe and WW Kayak) would be expected to carry with them ...

I have some ideas but input would be good....

First Aid Kit (but stocked to what level)
Shelter (any specific type, Bothy, Tarp)
Pin Kit ?
Split Blades (Kayak) ?
Phone ?
GPS ?
Maps ?
Money for public phone ?
Food ?
Throw Line (how many)


Cheers
Red.

(23-07-10 10:27 AM)redframe Wrote: [ -> ]Anyone have any knowledge regarding what a 5 Star leader (Canoe and WW Kayak) would be expected to carry with them ...

I have some ideas but input would be good....

First Aid Kit (but stocked to what level)
Shelter (any specific type, Bothy, Tarp)
Pin Kit ?
Split Blades (Kayak) ?
Phone ?
GPS ?
Maps ?
Money for public phone ?
Food ? (or a Jammy)
Throw Line (how many)


Cheers
Red.

drinks,
Spare clothes,
Saw,


Cheers
Tim

I'm not quite at that level yet Red so I can't give definative answers.
On my 4* training they really stressed:

Map and compass (to either identify your position or sort an escape route in case of a situation)
Some means of providing a hot drink in an emergency either flask or stove (but, in addition to your own drink for the day. So, if it is a flask it had to be an extra one for emergencies not just what was left in your own flask)
Emergency food and food for the day.
Emergency shelter. The instructor for the 4* canoe was happy with a tarp so long as you new how to use it. The instructor for the WW said a Bothy though but maybe he just wasn't as familiar with the possibilities a tarp can offer.
Emergency warm clothing. The WW instructor was pretty demanding on this. It should be big enough to fit anyone in the group not just your size. Not just a spare base layer but something like synthetic insulated jacket and trousers (with full length side zips so that they could easily be put on a casualty), hat, gloves and socks. I was doing the training in the middle of winter though so that may be why they were so strict. The canoe instructor was more relaxed and happy with you just carrying your own clothing so long as you checked that all the group had suitable clothing for themselves.
First Aid kit (good enough to treat any injury you may come across for as long as needed for help to arrive. Thus the size of the kit could vary depending on where you are paddling. The way they handled it was to give a senario and you had to explain how you would deal with it and show that your first aid kit was up to it.)
Throwline, knife, saw and any other rescue kit that you felt you needed to deal with an incident. Again the emphasis was on demonstrating that you could deal with given incidents with what you were carrying rather that a list of what you had to carry.
Spare paddles for whichever craft the group is using.
Torch or headtorch since an incident near the end of the day is likely to have you out until after dark especially in winter.
Phone (they weren't adamant on this since there isn't always a signal but handy if it does work).
Everything had to be in reliable dry bags and must still be dry after the rescue part of the course.

Hope that is some help. I know these kinds of things are always a bit debatable and no two paddlers ever completely agree on this.

(26-07-10 08:20 PM)chrisj Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not quite at that level yet Red so I can't give definative answers.

No, neither am I Chris, it was more of a question that came to mind that I didn't know the answer to and I couldn't find anything specific on t'internet...

Thanks for your response, it's really helpful...

Cheers
Red.

dont forget to pack the all singing/dancing multitool that does it all better than you can ( a WARTHOG)
wouldnt it be good when an assessor asks to see your kit and you reply... he's over there if you want to quiz him( make this into a dare)

(26-07-10 08:59 PM)andym Wrote: [ -> ]wouldnt it be good when an assessor asks to see your kit and you reply... he's over there if you want to quiz him

PMSL.... Now that would be funny Andy.....

Cheers
Red.

Not sure about the relevance of 5*, 4* or no *, but from what I've collated from those I've seen the following would appear to fit the bill.

On person:
knife
whistle
tape sling (open)
pin kit (saw, 2 krabs, 2 prussiks, open tape sling, tat)
throw line (either on a zambezi belt or clipped into boat within reach)

In boat (in a drum or large dry bag/rucksack - need to have a method to portage drum):
Thermos flask (large)
Water
Bothy bag
First aid kit (stocked to your standard of training)
Dry clothes (large)
Phone
GPS
Map
Compass
Notebook
Pencil
Headtorch
Spare food
Repair kit (pliers, cable ties, duct tape, spare seat bolt+nut+washers, self adhesive flashing strip or denso tape)

In boat: spare paddle

In boat (depending on the trip): bag (maybe strapped to a seat?) containing 40m of canyoning rope.

Other stuff which is just normal: throw bag clipped to stern loop as a swim line, pole

(27-07-10 09:11 PM)MountainDaze Wrote: [ -> ]Not sure about the relevance of 5*, 4* or no *...

Here follows a quote from a previous post, hopefully that will help...

(26-07-10 08:27 PM)redframe Wrote: [ -> ]........, it was more of a question that came to mind that I didn't know the answer to and I couldn't find anything specific on t'internet...

The relevance is that there was nothing that was easily found on the internet for someone that was planning on taking their training forwards, and in no way would a novice/improver paddler be expected to carry anywhere near the same amount of equipment as a qualified leader...

So... to have asked the question...."What should we carry when paddling in a group" would have been too unspecific....

As one aspect of the forum is dedicated to providing paddlers with knowledge, with hindsight, I've suggested below what might be expected if you intend to go to training and and assessment or intend to put yourself forwards as an unqualified leader of a group (for instance a Canoe Camping Club Leader, or general Canoe Club Leader)...

Main Pack
Socks
Base Layer Top
Mid Layer Top
Thermal Trousers
Down Jacket
Sleeping Bag
Thermarest
1.5/2L Flask
First Aid Kit
8-12 Person shelter
Emergency bag
Casualty Card/Waterproof Notepad
Pencil
Glow Sticks/luminous armbands
6x Gloves
6x Hats
15mtr 6mm Para Chord
Stove
Storm Shield (Stove)
1.5x2.5m Tarp
2 Carabs
Small knife
Hand Cream
Gas Canister
Pot
Compass
Map
Firesteel
Petrolium Cotton (Justin)
Survival Tin
Plumber's Tape
Zip Ties
LED Light
Head Torch
2x Multi Tool
Emergency Food for a night for the group (Veggie/Allergy tollerant ?)
Suncream (Factor 50)
Midge repellant

On person

Whistle
Phone (could be in dry bag in boat, but what if you lost your boat)
Rescue Knife
Pruning Saw
6m Tape
5m Looped tape
2x Screwgate carabs
Belt with 20m throw line and Pin kit (2x Swing Cheek pulleys, 2x Prussics, 2x Screwgate carabs and another 6m tape)


In Boat

25m Swim Line + 1m Looped Tape + Screwgate Carab (Stern)
20m Swim Line + 3m Looped Tape + Screwgate Carab (Bow)
Spare "substantial" paddle
Waterproof GPS


Although this seems like a LOT of kit, if you put it together you'll find that it actually isn't that bulky, and the "main bag" is a usefull tool for adjusting trim....

Cheers
Red

N.B. This is a suggested list for 5* Canoe Leader not Kayak, although the difference isn't great, you'd be looking to spread things throughout the group in a Kayak...

One tip I picked up from a course somewhere was rather than taking spares for the whole group (6 hats, 6 gloves etc) to ensure that every member of the group has a necessary spares (depending on the group this could mean a kit check and making them show you that they have the items or just a verbal check) and then you only need to carry 1 set of spares in case a rucksac (or in our case a boat) is lost. It was pointed out where ever it was that I was told this that over the course of a career in the outdoors the extra weight you cart about as a leader can really take it's toll on you so reducing it by getting the group to carry some can really help.

Agreed Chris... as I understand it, the latest advice is that you don't need to carry clothing that will fit the largest member of the group, and that group members should be advised to carry their own gear..., perhaps that's the first stage of "CLAP".. communication before the group leaves home....

But if you've got the spare space in your kit bag Six sets of hats and gloves ain't that big, or heavy..... (we are in a Canoe after all) and put Seven people in a Bothy bag with decent hats and gloves on.... How warm...

If you move over to Kayaks, then I agree, the shared kit list becomes much, Much more important, as carrying too much gear in your own boat will SERIOUSLY hamper your performance as a leader, and that kit check that you talk of works well, as long as you ensure you have the important stuff duplicated ...

Cheers
Red.

Remember you are leading competent paddlers doing Grd 3+ so they will have personal kit to match the grade eg saw and spare clothes with themselves.

try -

http://www.bcu.org.uk/tests-and-awards/l...ar-leader/

IF you click on the relevant award - ww / ocl etc!



Have you attended 4* training? This is a pre-requisite!

Thanks for the Link Don, but at the time the question was posed, and still the Syllabus, Trainers Notes and Assessors Notes all state something like...

"The candidate should present themselves for evaluation with suitable personal equipment, plus any additional equipment deemed to be appropriate to support a group in their charge"

So no suggested list there...

Hopefully the lists and suggestions in previous posts will help people out that are looking for ideas before going to training or as a reminder after attending training....

Yes, I've attended 4* Training...

Cheers
Red.

i remember years ago an assessor getting the candidates to wear the 'spare clothes' they had brought along for the rest of the day/evening. interesting and possibly embarrasing in a pub, but it made us reassess what we considered suitable clothing! its worth remembering.